Jason (00:39)
Hi, I'm here with Soni Basi, Chief Human Resources Officer extraordinaire. Welcome to the Wise in Five, Soni

Soni Basi (00:48)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Jason (00:50)
Well, it's all my pleasure. Thanks for making the time. I can't wait to dig into our five questions. But before we do that, you've worked at some amazing companies at the highest level. And I just think it would be good if you could share a little bit of your journey with our listeners so they get a sense for who you are and the amazing things you've done.

Soni Basi (01:09)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to give you a high level overview. I started my career actually in Chicago, which is where I know you are currently located at a small boutique company called International Survey Research, really at the forefront of culture work. And I was able to cut my teeth there working with Fortune 500 companies around their engagement strategies, their cultural transformation, working for some of the world's

highly recognized companies. And I was there for about seven years until one of those companies asked me to move to New Jersey and join them in a space of learning and development. And I've been in New Jersey now 20 years since. So the company was Schering Plough pharmaceuticals.

I was with them through a number of acquisitions and transformations that I had an opportunity to really dig my teeth into and help to support before I moved to the Estee Lauder company. So slight shift in terms of industry, but incredible organization where I had an opportunity to be there for about six years doing all of their talent transformation work with a new CEO who was on board.

and really just wanted to turn around the company from the standpoint of what does talent of tomorrow look like for the Estee Lauder company. So anything and everything from performance management to talent reviews, learning and development programs globally, it was an extraordinary time. And I left there only to join some of my colleagues who were now at Allergan Pharmaceuticals, and they'd been asking me to join them.

Allergan had just recently undergone a failed acquisition attempt by Pfizer. And so was an opportunity for me to come in and really help build all of the people needs for the future. So anything, everything from how are we hiring people now post this failed acquisition, right? what's our value proposition out on the street now? How do we build our people who

We're expecting to go into these really big roles at Pfizer, but now we're rebuilding the leadership bench. So really exciting time until they were bought by Abbvie seems to be kind of a theme of mine. So I went from there to AIG and built out their talent programs, again, a CEO transformation or CEO change while I was at AIG, which was exciting to support as well as a major divestiture of one of their business units.

And so from AIG landed at Edelman as their global head of HR industry that is going through massive change and communications with AI, but also just an organization that not only is at the top of its game, but is meeting with a lot of competitive challenges as well. So very, very meaty roles that I've had, an opportunity to be involved in a lot of transformation, all underpinned, I would say with my culture.

which I always say can either be an accelerant to what you're trying to accomplish or it can be a major drag, right? So that I would say would be kind of the core of what I've done.

Jason (04:09)
Wow,

I mean, talk about working at some companies that were going through amazing transformation. And I would think a big part of it was not just the products and services they had, but the team that was there. And you were right there leading those teams. So pretty incredible. Thank you for sharing that. And we're going to dig deeper into transformation and AI and ways of working, because those are obviously meaty topics.

But before we dig into those, want to ask you, where do you find inspiration? just in daily life, where do you go when you need that spark?

Soni Basi (04:40)
when I was at the Estee Lauder companies and I would walk between our buildings to meetings, I would see these incredible graffiti trucks that are all around New York City. And my mind would be blown by the variety of artwork that there is in this world. And then when you're working from your home for a little while, I do find that I need to step outside of

my house to find inspiration and to really connect in with people and where the world is going. think one of the things I always bring to the table from an HR standpoint is there has to be a creative lens to what we do. It can't be cookie cutter from company to company. So where the world is headed is where I want to be from an HR standpoint. So I do a lot of talking to people. So I'll talk to the next generation talent.

I love just chatting with them if I'm in a kitchen somewhere and they're grabbing their lunch or their coffee and I'll pick their brains. But I also, lean in on my sailing adventure. about five years ago, I found sailing and it has been transformational for me in terms of inspiration.

When I'm out on the water and there's nothing else that I can really focus on besides what's ahead of me, what are people doing on the boat, how safe are all of us, what is my role, how's that gonna impact someone else's role? I feel like that freedom from everything except what you're doing in the moment is incredibly inspirational as well.

Jason (06:06)
That's amazing. Well, and out on the water sailing versus, being on a power boat, you have to be in the moment, right? There's always something you have to be doing when you're on a sailboat.

Soni Basi (06:11)
Right? You do. Yes. Well,

we're usually watching out for power boats.

Jason (06:18)
Hahaha

you've worked at some of the largest companies in the world. think AIG had something like 40,000 people, right? So what would you say are some of your greatest learnings about building, empowering, retaining talent throughout your career?

Soni Basi (06:26)
Yes.

Yeah, and it's such a great question because I think these are human experiences. And what I find is that the size of the company often doesn't matter, right? There are some core principles I found whether in some recent interim roles with 500 employees to 1,000 employees, or if I look across a 40,000 person company, there's some universal truths, I would point to. think first and foremost, clarity.

really matters. So whether you're going to be going through a transformation, a reduction in force, you're going through growth, or you just want people to line up to strategy, being clear is number one, right? You find like when there's a rumor mill is when it's a really unhealthy culture. So you can either be addressing it.

head on or you can let people make their own assumptions. So I always say, let's go for clarity first. Second, I would say that empowerment is a very personal thing, right? So you're clear with someone, but here's an example in terms of empowerment being personal. I had somebody on my team who had done a bang up job on a project. And so I was like, amazing, you should present next week.

to the leadership team, right? Because I'm thinking I'm giving her this opportunity to get visibility and she's gonna be super engaged and that's gonna help with her retention. And she looked at me like a deer caught in the headlights. And she's like, I really appreciate it. But that is not for me. I'm happy for you to present this work. But she said, if you're trying to reward me, a spot bonus is what I want. right?

And so you go back to clarity comes down to empowerment as well, being really clear with individuals like, what is it that motivates you? Let's just have that conversation and then giving them more of that is going to pay off in the long term. And then I think the third I would point to is, about inclusion. So I'm invited to the meeting, but when I'm in the meeting, does my voice actually matter?

Jason (08:28)
That's right.

Soni Basi (08:44)
And so it doesn't matter what level you are in the company, but if you feel like you're invited as a kind of a thank you for the invitation, but you're not really valued within a company or in a situation, it's going to cut away at your feeling of engagement with that company. And then finally, I would say, those are the very personal for the individual.

From a leadership standpoint, I've been in so many situations where leadership is not walking the talk, right? So they may say, it can come down to something so simple, Jason, like, of course we want transparency in terms of what jobs are available so people can have the opportunity to post for those roles. But then in the background, they're like, I don't really want to post that job and I know who I want, right?

we have to be intentional about it, leadership has to set the tone. And if they can set the tone by saying, these are the principles that matter to me, and then aligning to those, Like, but let's be clear, and let's set the tone. So I'd say those are the four things that I find are really important to individuals. Otherwise, you start to get into some of the toxic behaviors and the toxic cultures.

Jason (09:53)
those are always fun talks.

Soni Basi (09:54)
Yeah. When

I see the postings on Glassdoor or on Fishbowl, and I'm like, okay, here we go, right? Like, let's there's something wrong here. It's it's Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And it is such a social world that you can control the messaging, you can control the culture, or you can let it control you.

Jason (10:03)
It's kind of perception versus reality, right? When you see that happening in the market. Yeah.

I love that. Yep. You're exactly right. So, as a woman leader, someone who obviously has done amazing things at these huge companies, where have you gone for guidance? if you're taking on something new, a new challenge, you've been a new company or when you need validation on, on a path that you're considering, do you have a person or people that you touch base with?

Soni Basi (10:19)
Yeah.

Jason (10:38)
when you're approaching some of these situations.

Soni Basi (10:40)
Yeah, I do. And this was probably the most pivotal advice I received when I was early in my career. And that was to set up my own board of directors, right, to consider myself the CEO of my career. And so having a board of directors, and I'll revisit that board of directors from time to time and just make sure that there isn't somebody new that I want to add in

And that has served me so well in my It includes individuals who've been former managers of mine. It includes individuals who I've met along the way who had thought this is just somebody who's really brilliant and thinks through things really clearly

It includes individuals who've been on my teams because I find that they hold the mirror up to me even better than others can. And so that personal board of directors has been really important to me. And I do, stay in touch with a lot of people as a result. So I believe in having a big community of individuals. That's also where I get my inspiration from too is through them. Yeah.

Jason (11:46)
Yep. That is

so smart. I've never heard it being described as you have a board of directors and you are the CEO of yourself. I love that. I teach at Indiana university, I teach entrepreneurship there and I'm going to use that and I'm going to give you full credit for it because I always tell these graduating seniors you are leaving school. You're a student of this school, but you need to be a student of the career that you're looking to get into.

Soni Basi (11:55)
Yes.

Yes. Okay, yes.

Jason (12:15)
And part of that is being a CEO, being an owner of your career. So I absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing it. So obviously you've been very successful in developing an evolving process for these enormous companies that as we talked about employ thousands of people. How do you see talent management evolving with everything changing? I coming out of the pandemic and we have new ways of working in terms of hybrid.

technology evolving in terms of AI and then you just have that I think there's a lot of things that are happening So how do you manage through that?

Soni Basi (12:50)
Yeah, it's definitely turbulent times, we like to say, right? And there's a lot that's happening to your point. One of the things I've started to realize is, you can have processes all you want so much of it's about personalization. And so even as technology evolves, you've got to come back to that individual.

And that's where managers really have an opportunity to step up. If a manager can sit down with you and have a conversation and say, tell me about what motivates you or tell me about what you're feeling as we're going through this transformation, can we reskill you? Or look, you're not keeping pace, right? Let's be clear, you're not keeping pace with where we're headed.

these types of conversations become really critical. And I do think that it's coming to a head with personalization. And this is an area actually, you I talked about my personal board of directors just a moment ago. One of those individuals is a former direct report of mine, and she was just giving a presentation last week at a conference. And she sent me a video of her presentation,

And so I'm going to steal something from her or borrow something from her, right? So she spoke about the three types of experiences that individuals really need, because we were talking about the sense of personalization, the human experience, a growth experience and a transparency experience. So the human experience is just very much as technology is evolving. There's so much fear that there's still this

incredible room for empathy and emotional intelligence. And you can get it from your manager, you can get it from your peers, but everyone is looking for that human experience. And that's why we go into the office, right? It's because we want a human experience. We want to connect with people, collaborate with them, do whiteboarding with them, celebrate with them. Some of my best friends are from the workplace. so, right, I've gone to their marriages, now I'm to their kids' marriages. So it's fun. So that's a human.

Jason (14:45)
Absolutely.

Soni Basi (14:50)
experience. The growth experience is shifting for lot of individuals now, whether it's being re skilled in certain areas and not wanting to be left behind like it when digital was really a big deal and people were trying to upskill individuals for the digital transformation. Or it could be that the next generation is really looking for more of that gig work, right? So

Let me take something for six months or a year, but I'm not going to fully commit, but I do need the benefits, right? Like there's all these considerations underway. So how do we meet that challenge as well? And then the third is around transparency. So where are we going? What is my future here? I think there's a even on TikTok, there's people are posting what their compensation is, right? So there's a lot more transparency these days

about everything. And so we've got to keep pace within corporations and companies as well. she talked about those three, but I'm expanding on those three as well. And in line with her, I do think it's a really great way to think about, personalization. Yeah.

Jason (15:54)
It truly is.

And thank you for sharing that. It also, you had mentioned something earlier about culture. And if I recall it correctly was either it's going to be an accelerant, right? Or it could be a deterrent or, slow you down. Right. And, and I think what you just shared kind of speaks to that. And especially when you're not all in the same place, at the same time, it's probably very hard to

Soni Basi (16:07)
Yeah.

Jason (16:18)
Figure out what does culture mean then in this new way of working?

Soni Basi (16:21)
That's right. an example of culture done really well and having people aligned was, one of the companies I did a major performance management change for. They hadn't been doing performance management. And the CEO was like, look, I need good performance management here because it's going to help me achieve my agenda. So the CEO understood he had his marching orders from the board.

get that done was if the entire company understood what was needed out of each of their roles to line up to it. So created a global performance management program for the company, created very strong rating scale that tied to compensation in a very strong way so people could really understand.

the entire reason they're coming in to work every single day, right, is to help the company achieve its strategy. And then he would have his quarterly town halls with his one slide saying, here's where we are, right, on the strategy. And so people really understood it. That was a culture change through performance management. And he called it the secret sauce. He's like, this is the secret sauce of our company and this is how we're gonna beat our competitors is through performance management.

it was a huge cultural accelerant, as one example, versus in another organization toxic behaviors and not role modeling, the values of the company and inconsistency in terms of who's living the values and who's not living the values, that became a major drag. And that company now,

is losing so much talent to a competitor as a result.

Jason (18:00)
And

I would, no surprise, right? But I would also think you can draw a pretty straight line between a company that's doing culture right and treating their team right and their financial performance versus one that's not. So it's not just, it's a good thing to do for the people. It's the smart thing to do for your business.

Soni Basi (18:17)
That's right. that CEO got it so quickly, right? And I meet other CEOs who are the same or some others who may say, well, what's the value of doing performance management? here's, know, HR again. but if you understand and you lay it up and you have a strong HR program or a team that can say, here's what you're trying to do and here's why, and now it's going to ladder up to you, then it makes more sense.

Jason (18:41)
Soni, as you've moved to work with businesses of different sizes, what differences do you see for companies as we were talking about, couple hundred versus the tens of thousands? what do you see the differences for these kind of mid-sized businesses in this environment?

Soni Basi (18:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, there are some some key things that are similar across organizations of any size, especially when it comes to people. But there are nuances. I think smaller companies or midsize companies have more agility. And sometimes they do say

we're scrappy, right? Like we're very scrappy and we've limited resources and that's wonderful. But I think that shouldn't take away from being professional. And so mid-sized companies may have fewer resources, but there's still an opportunity to professionalize and make sure that, culture is an accelerant, for example, and talent is valued. So your decisions in those companies have an outsized impact.

If you make a decision about one person that doesn't go in the right direction, the amount of drain in a mid-sized company from that one person is more significant than in a larger company. I'd also say that the second is around culture. It's easier to shape in a smaller company,

Jason (19:47)
exactly right.

Soni Basi (19:55)
so busy, you know, founder led companies and building the product and the results that it's almost a secondary or tertiary is around culture. So by the time you get to certain size, leaders are scratching their head thinking, okay, what have we done here and what is our culture? And then I would say, liberal bureaucracy, right? You can move quickly, you're agile.

But then as you're starting to scale or you're starting to put processes together to make sure you manage not to become bureaucratic, right? You can have process without the bureaucracy. ⁓

Jason (20:29)
Yep, I completely

agree with everything you said. I started my career in Fortune 500 companies and then worked at and built some companies that were mid-sized, couple hundred people. And my learning was it was foundational from the moment we had a couple of employees to determine what was important to us and what would be important to them and keep building on it because it also became a framework for who we wanted on the boat, to use the sailing analogy.

Soni Basi (20:57)
Yes, yes. That's right.

Jason (20:57)
who we wanted on the boat and who we didn't, right? As we were interviewing,

as we were evaluating, as we were growing, that was very important for us.

Soni Basi (21:04)
And and I'm glad you did right, because it makes a really big difference. Every decision to my point is outside. So who you hire and who you lose in a small company becomes really important. So having some of those values, cultural moments really laid down early days is is important.

Jason (21:23)
Totally agree. So we went through our five questions and you passed with flying colors. No, no question. But I do have a bonus question. Well, you know, you get a hat. We'll give you a cup of wisdom. So bonus question. as our mid-sized businesses, members see you on The Wisory what kind of questions do you feel like your best position to answer for them?

Soni Basi (21:26)
Yeah. Oh, thank you. Do I get it? I get a hat.

Yeah, I think I would come back to a couple of things that we touched on today. The first and foremost is culture. how do you scale your culture or define your culture without losing maybe the soul of the company? I know that's always like the fear is, we don't want to lose our soul. That's number one.

Number two is what do you have to get right about talent to be competitive in this environment that we're in? And especially as in a lot of organizations or smaller companies, you're still sourcing from the bigger companies. So what's your value proposition as you're sourcing from bigger companies to bring in the best talent? And then I would say third is I meet a lot of CEOs who have been thinking about some of the big company experiences.

but some of those big company experiences may not be right. so what type of benefits are really critical in a small company as you're scaling, what kind of rewards programs, how do you maintain competitive compensation when you're in a smaller company as well? those would be the three. So around culture, around some of the...

What do you need to get right in terms of talent? And then three, what are some the processes you can borrow from the big companies but make them right for your company?

Jason (22:59)
love it. especially now with the things that we talked about, I would think our leaders, our midsize business leaders are looking for exactly the type of advice that you just shared. So Soni, I can't thank you enough for making the time, sharing your wisdom, and being an amazing advisor on The Wisory. Thank you.

Soni Basi (23:19)
Thank you. Thank you, Jason. It's a pleasure to be a part of The Wisory. Thank you for having me.