Jason (00:39)
Hi, thank you for joining us for this week's Wisory Wise in Five I'm Jason Wadler, founder of The Wisory. I'm here with Paul Montanari, one of our great Advisors who has spent a lot of his career working at Fortune 500 companies in a variety of operations roles with a variety of groups within those companies. So welcome, Paul.

Paul Montanari (01:02)
Yeah, thanks Jason. Glad to be here.

Jason (01:04)
Well, I'm thrilled to have you here. And I wanted just to give everyone a sense of just the breadth and depth of the things you've worked on. So if you wouldn't mind just doing an overview of all the great experiences you've had.

Paul Montanari (01:18)
how much time do we have? No, I'm just kidding. So

Jason, I spent the majority of my career working in some of the biggest brands that you see out there. I spent a long time at Cigna. I spent a few years at Allstate. I've worked for the Hartford, three pretty large substantial insurance companies, financial services that people are familiar with. In my time there, as you said, I've worked primarily in operations leading business units from

healthcare and pharmacy and dental insurance to group insurance and voluntary benefits, you name a product I've been there. The key to that career though, right? So whether you, whether in each of those businesses and all of those stops, I was always sort of focused on one using data to derive insights and then turning those insights into impact solutions that drove business outcomes. That's me. I love the data.

both the qualitative, the quantitative. What are the people saying? What are the customers saying? What's the business saying? Put that into context. What's the business trying to achieve? And then setting an execution plan to make meaningful impact every single day. Did that in the corporate world. And now for the last two years, I've been doing that as a consultant, working with companies, Fortune 500 companies, down to seed rounds, health tech startups. I'm having a blast doing it.

Jason (02:28)
That's great. Well, the thing I know about Fortune 500 companies, especially in the financial services and insurance space that you were in, they don't take a lot of flyers on data and operations. So I'm sure a lot of your time was spent, what do they say, measure twice, cut once to make sure that everything was truly watertight before you move forward with it.

Paul Montanari (02:51)
Yeah, Jason, that's, you know, I'd say that's where the better organizations separate themselves. I've worked with teams that were that way. It was measure 17 times, start cutting, stop, double check again, go back and do your math and then go forward. And I've worked in some progressive businesses where it's you measure twice, you cut once. If you start cutting in the wrong direction, make a quick pivot and keep on cutting. And it's that back half.

where that's the me and those are the businesses that I think have the best ability to adapt, to move quicker, and to make more meaningful impact. If you spend too much time, by the time you actually start to cut, the measurements are all off anyways because the goal is changed.

Jason (03:34)
Exactly right. And we'll get into Agile and what that means in terms of how you not just build operations and technology, but kind of how you run a business, right? So I'm going to start with, this is my softball question. I always start with it. do you find inspiration?

Paul Montanari (03:43)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I draw from two main places. One is family. And one is food. And it's like two very different things that the most of the time I bring them together. Let me start with family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you think? You know, the family side, Jason, you know, I grew up a family of two sets of immigrants, my grandparents on one side, Italian, the other side, Russian.

Jason (03:59)
I'm surprised an Italian would say that.

Paul Montanari (04:11)
Two very different cultural, two different norms came to this country and built lives. And we sort of were brought up with these principles of work hard, have pride in everything you do, do it for yourself, do it for the people around you. My dad growing up, know, even just mowing the lawn was always when you're done, step back, look at what you did. Are you proud of it? If you are, great job. If you see something you want to improve, fix it and then have the pride in what you're done.

And that sort of continuous improvement, work for others, be a servant to the community, to the people that you're surrounded by, that's always with me. And that's an inspiration. my two daughters and my wife, that's what I live for. I brought up food. I love to cook. I love to barbecue. For me, it's not just the output, it's the process. I actually had this conversation with Dr. Adam Brown with ABIG Health.

at a dinner and we were talking about food and he said, why do you like it? And I was like, well, I like multiple parts of it. And he's like, tell me why. And I was like, well, I love the process. Operations guy, right? It's what I've done my whole life. The mise en place, getting everything cut up and prepared in its perspective place so that when you're ready to assemble, it's efficient. I don't cook by recipe.

You could have a plan. talked about it a minute ago. How many times are you going to measure or are you going to start cutting and adapting? So I got to take that agile process to my cooking. And then I love to sit back when I'm done. And I always ask my family, said, tell me what you think. Do you like you? What would you change? Because I don't expect them to love everything that I make, but I want to have that continuous mindset. And I love seeing the joy in other people's faces. And so I take inspiration from my family in those lessons. I take inspiration from food.

And when I pull that together, when I work, I'm doing the same thing. When I'm consulting with companies, it's I'm bringing forward with me the continuous improvement mindset. Do I have pride in what we're doing? Do you have pride? What does success look like for you? Because if I'm driving value to a success that's not aligned with yours, we're not going to be happy in the end. Am I putting everything in its place? Am I giving you a plan? Are we adapting as we go? And at the end of the day, are you and your customers delighted by the solution? Hopefully.

And if not, let's take those nuggets along the way and let's make it better. So oddly enough, it's family and food.

Jason (06:23)
it's terrific how you tied those together. And

in question number two, Paul, against our five questions. So obviously you've been a C level leader at some very large organizations. What are some of the greatest lessons that you've learned in managing teams? And did you learn those from? So, you know, did you have a mentor? Do you have someone that you would point to?

Or someone you said, I didn't like what they did. I may do it a different way. No names, but you know.

Paul Montanari (06:51)
Yes.

Yes, I've got both. And I think everybody does, right? Everybody looks back, you learn not just from the greatest outcomes, the greatest experiences, greatest mentors, you learn from the mistakes and you learn from the people that you say, that's not the way I want to be. And there's a couple of things I would say. One, as a leader, I firmly believed my role. I existed to lead and inspire people to achieve both their personal

and their professional goals. That's statement one. And I draw that story back to when I was a brand new employee. MassMutual was my first company I worked for right out of college. And I had this manager who was like, Paul, you are going to be the next great LTD claims manager. And you're going to go from claims manager to senior manager to team lead. And he had this whole career set out for me. And I looked at him I was like, it's not what I want to be. And he's like, but that's what success looks like.

And I made a decision that day. I was never going to look at an employee, a teammate, a team member, and chart their goals for them. He could have said, hey, Paul, what do you want to achieve in your career? So that means that personal goals, super important to me. And then, of course, we're here to do work. And so that's where the professional goal comes in. And where we can move both of those two things forward at the same rate, you have highly engaged.

highly hardworking employees that know you care about their best interest as well as the best interests of the organization. So that's lesson one. I'd say lesson two, Leadership is not about being infallible. I feel like so many leaders think we can't make mistakes, we have to know the answers, we're the ones that we looks up to. Nobody knows all the answers and it's okay to be vulnerable, to be authentic, to learn.

and to admit when you don't have the answers, but then go find them. And so pulling that authenticity and vulnerability, infallibility together, super, super important. And then I say the third lesson, I was moving off of my career at Cigna and I'll say his name because he's super important to me. Chris Hosavar was a very senior leader there and has gone on to do some amazing things since he left Cigna.

And Chris said to me, Paul, do you want to keep running around wearing a t-shirt that says operator? And I was like, no, I don't want to be an operator. I want to be a business leader. And he said, then make sure in everything that you do, you're not making operations decisions, you're making business decisions. And make sure people know the perspective you're bringing. You might be sitting in an operations role. I wore the COO title, but that hat came off and I sat at that table.

as a business leader, as an owner, not a renter. And so I carry that message from Chris, ensure that everything you do is not about the hat you're wearing, the role title, it's the perspective you're bringing to ensure that you lead from a business perspective.

Jason (09:37)
That's fantastic. that last point, which really ties into how you were leading teams, people that were part of your team, I would think also played to how you work with your peers. Because if you're coming to them with that perspective, and it's not just about your lane, but it's about the business and how you can work better together, I would think you built some great relationships and had terrific outcomes off of that relationship.

Paul Montanari (10:03)
Yeah, Jason agreed. And I say that wasn't always easy. It didn't always come naturally. There's a tendency in all of us, again, not infallible. There are times in my career I've been like, I'm the Ops guy. I know the answer. Mr. IT leader, don't tell me what to do. One of my greatest relationship successes was with my ITO at Cigna. We didn't see eye eye for a while because we each were sticking, we thought we were each sticking in our lane and we sat down over coffee one day.

and said, I don't want to be in my lane. I don't want you to be in your lane. How do we drive the same outcomes, share each other's perspectives, align on what we're trying to achieve, and do it together? And then once you put that down, you pull those walls down about protecting turf, and then instead you protect outcomes, all those relationships become better. Yes, we're all there for expertise. He's an IT leader. I'm an operations leader. That person's a sales leader. You bring your expertise, but at that table,

or business leaders, the hats come off and it's everybody's perspective to drive the business forward.

Jason (11:02)
Great. I'm going to take a sip of wisdom with that.

Paul Montanari (11:06)
How do you define wisdom this afternoon, Jason?

Jason (11:08)
Talking with Paul. That's how I define wisdom today. So. Question three, which we're going to get into the technology side and there's these two letters you may have heard of called AI. I think that's how you pronounce it, but how have you seen technology change the way companies operate both for good and bad? And how have you personally adjusted around that as you worked on things for?

Paul Montanari (11:10)
There you go, I love it, I love it.

Jason (11:34)
yourself and your team and also as you're helping other companies.

Paul Montanari (11:38)
Yeah, Jason

AI, you know, it's it's, you know, the new acronym, but we've been working in versions of this for years now. RPA, machine learning, like RDA, we've been doing this for years. And yes, the pace and the rate of advancement, the capabilities today are far beyond what it was a few years ago. But I've been fortunate to be a part of that journey. I was part of the journey at Cigna when we stood up sort of a center of excellence around using intelligent automation.

Jason (11:45)
That's right.

Paul Montanari (12:05)
You know, that's what we were calling it at the time. And it was scary. I distinctly remember we were talking about deploying robots. And someone said, does that mean there's gonna be robots roaming down the halls? And I looked at the computer and I was like, no, I'm talking about like robotic process automation, like the computer is just gonna do stuff and people were already going to some other version of a future. And so,

Automation's been out there. I personally am super excited about it. I take a very forward-thinking approach to it. I don't look at it as it's taking away my worth, my value, if it's doing a function that I did. I look at it as it's augmenting my intelligence. And when done right, you're leveraging the automation to do the work that people primarily don't want to do anyways.

I used to talk to folks that I worked with and it was, know, what's the part of your job you love? I love talking to clients. I love talking to customers. I love making the change. I love being consultative. What's the part of your job you don't like? man, bouncing between the four different systems, going and doing all the research, doing all this data analysis. I like the outcomes. Great. If I found a way to automate the stuff you don't like so you can spend the majority of your time on the stuff you do like, would you want that? yeah, that sounds great.

And I think that's the way we have to look at this. If we take a fearful approach to it, turf protection, you're going to slow innovation, you're going to slow personal growth. Jason, I personally think of the movie Hidden Figures. I love the movie. And there's the scene where the computers, the people, the mathematicians were scared that the IBM computer came in. And one woman stood up and she's like, I can wait to be replaced, or I can learn a new skill, and I can code the IBM.

and I can create a new path for myself, I can learn new skills, and I can advance even farther. That scene in that movie sticks in my brain every single time this conversation comes up, because that's where we're at. It's not about what's being taken away, it's what can I do to harness all the time back in my day, the value of the work that we do, and how do I go even farther and faster?

Jason (14:13)
That's terrific. So if I heard you correctly, Paul, you're not defining AI as artificial intelligence. It's augmented intelligence or in some ways automated intelligence to take on some of the things that are more routine that people may not want to be spending time on. They're not the higher level strategic relationship activities

Paul Montanari (14:36)
Yeah, augmented intelligence is actually a term. You're not replacing decisions. You're augmenting and enabling decisions. I've talked to underwriters. You see articles posted. Oh, you know, is the world of underwriting going away with AI? No. There's still human decision. There's still human behavior that's applied to it.

Jason (14:55)
And so when we think about it, at least I'll go back to The Wisory and you being a wonderful advisor on The Wisory, where we say AI, at least the way artificial intelligence is being defined, it's not an or when it relates to people, an and, right? And we have this belief AI plus AI equals AI. So our advisor insights plus this artificial intelligence gives you actual

Paul Montanari (15:15)
Absolutely.

Jason (15:23)
insights that you can be using to apply to your business. So I think you did a great job coloring that. Question four. I mean, we're moving. What advice would you give to leaders at mid-sized businesses who are trying to navigate the market changes, primarily from an operational you have such amazing experience over the past few decades. Obviously, it's an uneasy market right now.

Paul Montanari (15:47)
Yeah, the advice that give them would be find me on The Wisory and give me a call. Like that little plug? exactly. know, Jason, I think there's so much changing. And if you'd asked me this question five years ago, I'd say the same thing. We always are saying there's so much changing. The market is dynamic. The economy is dynamic. The world national stage is dynamic.

Jason (15:51)
Perfect.

Cup of wisdom.

Paul Montanari (16:09)
The things that are changing around us are constantly changing. There has not been stability in our environment forever. Right? And so what I see is with so much changing, with so much instability, what's still important? What business goals are important? Should I be worrying about cutting expenses? Should I be worrying about the pace of innovation? Should I be pushing for product? How does specialization and product get me value?

in market, how does that complicate operational delivery? It's a question someone asked me last week. Should we be simplifying product so that operations are more efficient? My answer is, well, no. You should be finding ways to have your operation, your delivery move with your product design. As long as that product design is creating value for your consumers, don't let anything else slow you down. And so you pull those components together.

But I always start with what's most important to you as a business. What's the goal you're trying to achieve? What does success look like for your shareholders? If you're not a public company, what are your internal goals? What are you trying to achieve? What matters most? Then we got to set a plan. Where does the changing environment impact? And is it impacting you you're just worried about it impacting you?

What's the plans that we can have to protect it? What are those plans that we have to have ready to pull in when you need to pull that lever? But don't slow down progress because you're scared of what's happening. So again, for me, it always comes back to go back to how we started this conversation. Data, let's use facts. Let's use what's out there, what's actually happening, whether that's goals, whether that's actual environmental changes. What's the insight that we can derive from it?

and then don't stop making an impact because your customers don't care about your internal challenges. Your shareholders don't care about your internal challenges. They care about the impact. And so again, whether you're a mid-size company, a startup company concerned about change, don't expect the world to stop changing. That's actually much scarier to me than constant change.

Jason (18:15)
Again, extremely well said. I couldn't agree more. And actually, I would say refreshing from an operational perspective, because sometimes within a company, operations tends to be more change resistant. It's harder to navigate that change. So that's a very refreshing take.

Paul Montanari (18:31)
That's why I don't wear that t-shirt that says operator anymore Jason as business leader, right? Because again, you said it, I've heard it so many times, right? Just start selling standard and then operations, can be really good. It's the wrong perspective. You sell standard, you're replaceable. We have to find a way as a business, every function from marketing, to go to market, to sales, to operations, to service, all have to move forward.

Jason (18:32)
Hahaha ⁓

That's right.

Paul Montanari (18:58)
for that one end goal, which is satisfying and delighting your customers.

Jason (19:02)
not agree more. last question, but what challenges are you hearing most from business leaders today? And I think you touched on it, but how can they turn them into

Paul Montanari (19:14)
Yeah, I I think I hear two things all the time. So AI, first off, everybody's concerned about it. A day doesn't go by that I don't see another article published about what AI can't do, right? AI can't replace a human. AI can't diagnose patients. AI can't, can't, can't. You have that side, and then you have the AI is going to replace me. Everywhere I go, every conversation I have, this keeps coming back.

So again, what I go back to is how do you pull them together? What can it do to solve my goals? What can it do to help me improve? What can it do to help my business move forward? The other ones I see all the time are struggles with scale. Again, whether you're a large company scared about the economy and what it's doing, how do I maximize my scale? How do I drive efficiency without going backwards? Because we expect to continue to grow.

or I'm a startup company, I need to be efficient. But if I grow really well at a rate that I want, I've got to be able to scale efficiently. And so people come to me with scale questions all the time.

Jason (20:15)
That's right.

And I think part of it is also what's sustainable, right? So in an environment that maybe there's some instability and some questions, if I'm scaling today, does that mean it's gonna be sustainable in the future?

Paul Montanari (20:29)
Yeah, sustainable competitive advantage. did a paper on it in my MBA. I mean, it's one of these like, you you'll throw back to, you know, old school strategy, but that's what we all want. We want sustainability. You want consistency and you need the sustainability to engage your workforce. I mean, at the end of the day, start where I go back to the very beginning of this thing. I exist to lead and inspire people to hit their personal and professional goals. We, at the end of the day, are businesses of people. Your employees want stability.

gotta be a path, scalability, efficiency, growth, and a career path, right? Businesses need competitive advantage. They need to continue to grow consistently. Shareholders are never satisfied staying where you are. They want value. Growth businesses, it's not about staying at a seed round. You wanna get to an A and a B and a C, and you wanna become everybody in every business needs to grow, needs to scale, and needs to drive efficiency. It's not a one-time thing. It's an everyday thing.

Jason (21:27)
Again, Paul, mean, this is why people need to find you on The Wisory because not just the wisdom that you're sharing, but the application of it is so important. But starting with that strategy and perspective, without that, there's no way you're going to get to where you need to be as a business and as a leader. I've got one bonus question. So as folks come to The Wisory and they see you, Paul, and your amazing background, what

Paul Montanari (21:31)
They do.

Jason (21:54)
questions, what solutions can you provide? What can they expect to ask you and engage you on?

Paul Montanari (22:00)
It's a great question I consult with businesses that want to grow So if you're looking for perspective that someone that can draw Experiences from large companies small companies growth businesses shrinking businesses

someone that's destined to pull all this together and create a customized plan for you, that meets your customer's goals and your business's goals and your employees goals, that's me. Efficiency, automation, technology, done in a way that is customized based on all of my experiences across all the different companies, that's the value that I bring.

Jason (22:38)
such a pleasure. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to answer our Wise in Five questions and also for being an amazing advisor on The Wisory.

Paul Montanari (22:47)
Thanks, Jason. It's absolutely my pleasure. Glad to be part of it. Thanks. Bye-bye.

Jason (22:49)
Great. All right, be well. Thank you.

Bye.