Jason (00:43)
Hi, Vas, it's great to see you.

Vas Nair (00:45)
How are you, Jason? Great to be here.

Jason (00:47)
I

thank you. I'm doing wonderfully. I'm here at Indiana University teaching my class today. So I'm thrilled to have you on for the Wise in Five thrilled to have you as an amazing advisor. And before we dive in to the Wise in Five questions, I'd love for you to share your background with the people that are watching and listening today.

Vas Nair (01:10)
Absolutely. I started my corporate career in Sydney, Australia.

So that was an unbelievable and amazing opening up many doors, if you will. So when I finished my undergrad and my MBA, I initially moved into banking and finance. I was a bank manager at one of the big four banks in Australia. And that's where the aha moment came in, when I realized it was the people side of things that really excited me and motivated me. So I looked into

opportunities within HR and that took me into the pharmaceutical world. So from roles in Sydney, in Asia Pacific, I was then offered the opportunity to come to the United States here in New Jersey. As you know, there are a ton of pharmaceutical companies here and that really started the global roles for me. So,

HR, of course, has many aspects to it. It could be comp and ban, it could be learning, it could be just doing generalist HR work. But I was very drawn towards talent development, leadership development, transforming culture and so on. So I stayed in the pharma world for a bit. ⁓

⁓ moved to the Estee Lauder companies, similarly taking on global opportunities, and then shifted to manufacturing as CHRO at Alcoa Van Arconic. So the one thread that I realize in my career track is, regardless of the industry, regardless of the region, the talent challenges are quite similar.

Right. So it's been an amazing path. And since 2020, I got to that juncture of, what do I want to be when I grow up? Do I take on another CHRO opportunity? Do I do something very different? And that's where the entrepreneurial side of things opened up. I did start an interior design company. So working from home was new for me. COVID changed all of that.

Jason (02:54)
What?

Vas Nair (03:18)
Then I started doing leadership consulting and HR consulting work, is what I've done for the past five years and love it.

Jason (03:26)
That's wonderful. Well, I can't wait to dive into all of it, especially your roles at these huge companies. Before we do, I want to start with my first question, which I ask all my guests, which is, where do you find inspiration just in daily life?

Vas Nair (03:41)
You know, what I find extremely motivating is, as I call it, to be that spark in a conversation. So I'll give you an example. I was at a leadership workshop recently, and the question I asked the group was centered around, how do you tackle the human emotions?

caused by AI disruption. Okay. And I just love seeing that conversation grow and evolve. So what does that mean? One person throws an idea on the table, someone else challenges it. So I think what inspires me is to watch and facilitate a conversation that goes from one space to the next, because it's encouraging you to think about something different. It's asking people to say, how about we

experiment and try something new. So being curious, getting into that continuous learning cycle and just saying the what if questions, those aha moments and my gosh where do I go now, that's what inspires me.

Jason (04:47)
Well, clearly you chose the right career path given your curiosity and love of people. my next question, so clearly you've been this incredibly successful leader developing and evolving processes for some of the world's largest companies. How do you see talent management and culture development evolving, especially you mentioned AI in this world of rapidly changing technology with AI as well as

Vas Nair (04:50)
Thankfully.

Jason (05:13)
ways of working coming out of the pandemic and people working remote and hybrid.

Vas Nair (05:16)
Yeah, I think most companies are right in the middle of this, right? And there are so many things to take into account, but if I focus on two areas, work is moving so rapidly. And what leaders need is fast, accurate data about their people.

And without that, decision making is going to be pretty tough. So that's number one, just making sure that you have access. And if you don't, you need to build those systems. They don't need to be uber complicated, but get access to your people and talent data. That's number one. Number two, agility, making bold decisions and rapid deployment of talent needs to be a comfort zone.

I think people need to move away from coddling their space and saying, no, I own this talent. That doesn't work anymore because someone else is either going to poach them or your competitor is making decisions a heck of a lot faster. So these talent discussions really needs to be a skills marketplace.

Forget about checking that box annually and saying, all right, we've done succession planning or once a year is good enough. No, you might have to do it once a month. So that concept of being agile, having the right information and your systems and your processes have to encourage the movement of talent. And by the way, that's also the key to retaining talent. People don't want to be stuck in a place for too long.

So that's one. The second part of it, think AI surprisingly is introducing much more of a focus around human centered leadership, the human centered approach.

jobs get replaced or some of those routine tasks, anything that's analytical, that's getting replaced by AI, what seems to be missing are those human skills, such as judgment, right? Such as empathy, speaking and listening to your colleagues, as well as ethics.

Jason (07:21)
Mm-hmm.

Vas Nair (07:28)
So again, the shift towards AI, that's already underway. What we've now got to figure out is how do you build a culture that values the human centric approach?

And don't shy away from dealing with emotions because people want leaders to have those human and personal skills. Right. think culture, the work around culture is already evolving towards what is purpose. How do you contribute to value? How do we make people have a sense of belonging? So that work is already underway.

Jason (08:04)
I love that. And you're speaking my language, Vas because, you know, when I teach my class, which I'll be in today, it's all about purpose, purpose, passion and perseverance and those critical thinking skills, you know, as you look to be an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur at a company. So I'm in violent agreement. And I love what you said about those skills, those human skills. It's the counterbalance to what's happening with AI and they become even more important.

Right as technology and AI starts to move further and further. So I think that makes a lot of sense. So onto the next question. I mean, as you've moved into this next phase, as you mentioned, you're working with businesses of all sizes after having worked at these huge organizations with huge teams. What differences do you see for mid-size companies versus the Fortune 500, Fortune 1000 companies you've been a part of?

Vas Nair (08:32)
Right.

Jason (08:52)
in this environment, especially when we're talking about building and empowering and retaining talent as you referenced before.

Vas Nair (08:58)
Again, this is such a pertinent question. It's so real for anyone you speak to, regardless of the size of the organization. I think the talent challenges, as I mentioned earlier, regardless of the industry or the size of the company, they tend to be the same, right? Whether it's retention, whether it's attracting the right folks, you how do you keep people motivated? How do you reward and recognize, et cetera?

Mid-sized companies, I believe, feel the pain a lot quicker. So for instance, you have one misstep with a leadership hire, or you have a weak link in your group of managers. You feel that impact very, very quickly. And that's going to come through either in the customer experience. It can come through in your culture, how people treat one another.

It can definitely come through in results. Now with mid-sized companies, the advantage is if leaders can act with speed and be bold, you can change that quickly. You can turn that around to your advantage, but you have to have that organizational self-awareness, the ability to say, we have a problem and what are we going to do to move forward?

Now in the larger organizations, much larger organizations, they have the budgets, they have the infrastructure, they have the programs, et cetera. It's easier to hide, right? So what I mean by that is the pain may not be as obvious quickly. So.

Jason (10:30)
Mm.

Vas Nair (10:37)
I think leaders get stuck in the bureaucracy, they get stuck in the processes, and by the time you try to solve one problem, you're on to problem number seven.

Right, so that's where I tend to see the biggest difference between the two types of the sizes of organizations. And by the way, the one call out I have here is please don't outsource culture to HR. It doesn't make any sense. Every employee in an organization has the opportunity to influence culture.

So HR is always going to be there to guide you, show you the way, give you the tips, coach you, but it's the responsibility of everyone in an organization. And of course the leaders have to show the way. And talent doesn't stay because you've rolled out a new framework, right? Your talent will stay because they feel the leaders have their best interest at heart.

Jason (11:34)
Mm-hmm. I that is such a great perspective and You I kind of view it as you were talking about the large companies versus midsize Just in my personal experience I've seen it where you could have these amazing leaders and your people want to follow them But it's that middle management layer if they're not carrying it through and being active in reinforcing that culture I think that's it's almost like a game of telephone right or

or there's a misperception in terms of what it should be. And I think on the mid-size companies, because you don't have those layers, right, you may not have as much money, but you don't have those layers, that it's easier than to push the culture through from the leader themselves, you know, the founders.

Vas Nair (12:13)
Absolutely spot on.

Jason (12:15)
That's great. I'm following right? I'm I'm following what you're laying down. Well, and so as your career evolved and grew, where have you gone for mentorship and guidance as you know, you're thinking about challenges you haven't taken on before or going to that next level?

Vas Nair (12:31)
You know, very early on in my career, and this is a double-edged sword, right? So I was always either the youngest in the room or the only female. And, you know, as I grew into my roles, especially in Asia Pacific,

I was shy to ask for help. I was shy to show my vulnerability because you put that pressure on yourself. I'm in this leadership role or I'm now a director or an executive director, fill in the blank. They expect me to be A, B, and C. So there's a tremendous amount of pressure that you put on yourself.

So a few things happened. One, you know, I was making mistakes. Then I'd sit back and say, all right, I don't know where to go. Now, fortunately, I've had leaders who've stepped forward to take me under their wing to say, listen, let's do this together or you can shadow me. So that's been a blessing.

I've also, as I've matured, gone outside my organization to ask for help, right? I remember two mentors, they were both entrepreneurs, they both established their own companies so far away from my area of expertise. And I remember them passionately because one of them taught me about resilience.

that you are going to fall. It's about your ability to bounce back. And it's interesting because I focused on why I fell and made the mistake versus focusing on what do I need to do to bounce back and learn and propel myself forward, right? Eat humble pie is a message that I got from that. That second mentor who I spoke about,

helped me with focusing on reflection and mindfulness. Now that's also a topic that not many people spend time on. And I think as we grow as leaders, we have to learn to give ourselves the time to just pause and say, I need a minute.

I need to just think about what just happened and how I can either learn from it and admit you don't have all the strengths. Where can I go to get that additional support? So those are two mentors that stand out for me. And from time to time, I do go back and say, yeah, I remember that lesson learned. So ask for help. That is one advice I would give people. Don't be shy. We all have development areas, right? Put your ego aside.

Jason (14:59)
That's right. Maybe even come to the Wisery, right? And find someone like you who can be an advisor to help you out with that. And you talked about resiliency and we're gonna touch on this unbelievable women in leadership panel that we're gonna be having in the next week. But I spoke with Janet Foutty who was the CEO and chairperson of Deloitte and she talked about resiliency as well. And there's a term, it's more than a term, it's really a philosophy that...

I really like and I teach my students, which is that concept of anti-fragility, which is moving beyond resiliency in terms of getting through something. And how do you, as you said, learn from it and start to show where the new paths will take you now that you have this learning and where do you find strength from that and start to move forward? So I'm a big fan of that whole concept and path. So as I mentioned,

Vas Nair (15:43)
Mm-hmm.

Jason (15:51)
We have this amazing panel in the next couple of days that I'm thrilled that you're a part of. We're kicking off our Women in Leadership series, which I've been wanting to do for a while. It's November 12th. What do you hope the female leaders who are gonna be part of the discussion, listening and interacting with you and the rest of the panel, what do you hope they're able to learn from the panel as they continue on their journey?

Vas Nair (15:56)
looking forward to it.

I hope that the attendees can see that you don't have to take this journey alone. That so many of us have gone through similar experiences. However, we may have taken different approaches to solve a problem.

Meaning there are these stories out there, ask for advice, right? Put your ego aside. Ego is not going to help you in your leadership journey. Promise me, you'll like, please take that advice.

Put your ego aside, right? So you don't have to travel this journey on your own. Now, whether you have an official coach or a mentor, one of the things I'm hoping they'll walk away with is that we all have areas for improvement, right? Because we've got some similar stories, my guidance is share. Share that knowledge. Put your hand up and say, you know, I'm not quite sure about that.

Let me listen to someone else's storyline. Another thing that I hope people will walk away with is, you know, be kind because when you put your hand out to help someone.

that will be reciprocated in some way, shape or form. So again, the balance of, it really is the yin and yang story of this, to give, to share, and to be able to be open to say that someone else is willing to help you as well. So that's what I'm hopeful that the round table and those attending will be able to walk away with.

Jason (17:44)
I'm sure they will. I'm a big believer in karma and that's exactly what you're laying out there. What you put out there, you're hopefully going to get back even more, right? And it just becomes this continuous cycle. So we have had our five questions, Vas, and no surprise you passed with flying colors. So thank you for that. I have one bonus question. what questions can the folks who come to The Wisory midsize business leaders, what

Vas Nair (17:55)
Correct.

Thank

Jason (18:11)
questions or ideas should they be thrown by you that you can help them answer for their business.

Vas Nair (18:18)
You know, one of the areas when you think about talent, ⁓ current talent and, you know, future state, one question that I tend to ask myself, and I would encourage those attending to ask is, when you think about your organization, do you have the right capability in the critical roles, not

Do we have the right people? Right. ⁓ as an HR professional, I know I should be much more people centric in my language. I get that, but you've got to be a practical leader. Right. The more you put the people and names in boxes, the more it's tied to emotions. So when you have, for instance, 10 critical roles, your company is going to shut down if those 10 critical roles are not.

filled with the right capability, that's what you focus on. So that's something I would encourage people to think about. Do I have the right capability in these critical roles? That's number one. The second is something you touched on and I'm hearing a lot more about, and that's the pressure on the mid-level managers. They're getting hit from senior level expectations and they're expected to coach frontline employees.

In a lot of instances, these mid-level managers have never been given the training to lead others, or they've never had personal experience, even leading one other individual. That's a huge red flag. So the question I would pose to the group is, do you see those red flags? And dive in, because solving those red flags don't have to be chaotic.

You can come up with very simple steps, such as onboarding the right way when it comes to mid-level managers, making sure that they have maybe two of the most critical capabilities that they need to be successful, not 15. So take these bite-sized chunks to solve those red flags.

Jason (20:23)
That's fantastic. Well, I can't wait for more and more of the folks who are coming to The Wisory to engage with you against those topics. And I'm sure there's others that will come out. But thank you so much for being an amazing advisor, for taking the time to answer these questions. I'm thrilled to have you part of it. So thank you. And I can't wait for the panel next week with you and the others to share your wisdom with all the emerging leaders.

Vas Nair (20:48)
Likewise, I'm looking forward to November 12th as well. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. Much appreciated.

Jason (20:54)
Absolutely. Thanks again, Vas. Take care. Bye.