Jason (00:00)
Hi Jim, fantastic to see ya.

Jim Lefevere (00:02)
Hey, great to be here. Thank you, Jason.

Jason (00:03)
my pleasure. And and I love the background. I mean, you're doing the colors today. So you are all in, and I appreciate that. You're all purple, all Wisory all fellow Hoosier, you know, national champion. I got my mug from my kids for Father's Day. So I'm good there. before we dive into our wise in five, I would love for you to share your amazing background for the folks that are watching and listening.

Jim Lefevere (00:09)
I'm all all all purple today.

sure. So graduated from IU ⁓ mid nineties. always knew that I wanted to kind of move into marketing. started out, went into publishing. that was obviously around the time ⁓ the internet, the first go-round of the internet started to take off. And so then I always having a little bit of a bent towards technology, I started to work through a couple of startups.

locally in Indianapolis area. And then that led me ultimately to working at Roche. and I stayed at Roche for 24 years in progressive commercial leadership roles, ⁓ primarily in global functions, ultimately having responsibility for digital marketing and the diabetes care business ⁓ globally.

moved into a role around innovation and so that gave me ⁓ opportunity to work with a lot of startups and helping take assets that Roche had and

Pairing that with assets from startups and the idea that one plus one could potentially become three, ⁓ and really being able to kind of take those product bundles and then testing them in health systems and learning the process of what health systems are looking for and how to get kind of new products out into the market. And then finally, worked in a product development role, leading ⁓ all the digital components in support of a continuous.

Glucose monitoring product that launched in September of 2024. Ultimately decided to leave Roche in October of 24 and since then have been consulting, really kind of bundling up all the experience that I collected over those 24 years working globally and in marketing roles to help startups and smaller organizations you know find commercial clarity, help them, whether they're

launching a new product. They have a product in the market or and need kind of a fresh perspective. They're scaling and need to view things a little bit different for scale. That's where I step in and kind of help companies ultimately with the goal of kind of helping them find that clarity and stepping out and helping and you know letting them run that.

Jason (02:25)
Yeah, that's great. Amazing background. And ⁓ I gotta say, is I don't think there's a hotter space right now than the med tech health tech space and and everything that's happening with it. I mean, GLP one is a a thing, right? I've I've seen people talk about GLP one as a bigger thing than AI. It's gonna have a more dramatic impact on society than AI possibly could, which is hard to believe. And we're gonna talk about AI and and how this is all fitting in. And something I wanna mention.

And thank you for this. We have a round table coming up with you and two other incredible product leaders in the regulated space that I encourage everyone to take a look at. Go to Wisory.com and take a look at that. But so with the background, amazing background now being shared, can you go through in our first question and just share where do you find inspiration in daily life? It's something I ask everyone who ⁓ who joins me on this podcast.

Jim Lefevere (03:19)
Yeah, but wow, what a huge question. ⁓ so inspiration. I think part of it is growing up and my mom was a nurse, primarily in kind of nursing homes and you know, that kind of setting. And then my dad was actually a funeral director. And so they were kind of involved in these different spectrums of care. So either take

Jason (03:38)
Vertically integrated.

Jim Lefevere (03:39)
Yeah, taking care of people and or, you know, providing care to to people ⁓ and and loved ones, you know, at the end of life. And so ⁓ as I think about that question of inspiration, I mean I always kinda go back to the roots in my my childhood. And think that's where a lot of it kind of fomented. ⁓

so to speak. And I'd never really when I was in school or, you know, the earlier parts of my career, I never really thought about it that deeply. But, you know, as you get longer into your career and you have the opportunity to kind of reflect and look back, I really think that that had a huge impact, ultimately on kind of how my career has unfolded. And and what I have found through the course of my career and s you know, specifically being at Roche is that being close to a patient

⁓ and even if you're in a marketing function or you know, you're not directly delivering care to a patient, I think n working in a organization ⁓ that is specifically creating, developing and bringing products to the market to help people is very impactful. ⁓ and certainly has had a very impactful

im a very large impact on my career overall and kind of how I view it and how I think I view it going forward. because that's there's nowhere else that I would rather be. And and it's a quick aside, i in my career at Roche I did a ⁓ literally a very quick kind of boomerang out for literally three months and I went to work for a industrial products company, like door closures and hinges and you know, not

sexier exciting stuff and literally very quickly realized like that was a very bad decision. Luckily, ⁓ Roche took me back. and so, reinforced for me, devaluing the importance of, you know, really being able to provide care or a product that helps people.

Jason (05:24)
Well, I think that's just a terrific answer. And I think that it's a it it it just drives off of your childhood experiences and seeing your parents do that, it's just pretty incredible. And obviously having that three month kind of kick in the head, you realize kind of your passion and your purpose, and that you were what you're following. So and and you know, very fortunate because not a lot of people get to do that. So I think that's that's wonderful. So

Jim Lefevere (05:42)
Yeah.

Jason (05:49)
I mentioned AI before. And you know, with this next question, I'd like to get your perspective. Where do see AI adding the most value in diagnostics product development, which you you worked on, whether it's going through discovery or clinical validation or commercialization, as you you mentioned, where where do you see that having the most value in impact?

Jim Lefevere (06:08)
I think you know, at least in my experience, I think the easiest answer is to think about it from a discovery perspective because it can help, you know, if you really I worked in more of a safe, kind of agile environment and was there when that was implemented and you know, really from an enterprise, large enterprise perspective, that is kind of the the first step into

you know working in an agile way. And the first thought is that, well, AI makes discovery so much easier. You can determine the job to be done. You can test it, you can create synthetic personas and really get a good idea up front of whether or not the feature, the thing that you're building it ⁓ is of interest and could work. ⁓ so that's the easy answer. I think the better answer though is

downstream that it can help really validate what you're building more into the market before you get into the market. And that is really kind of one of the weak spots in that I think in

large kind of product development is is the validation part. So you think you have a good idea, you build it, you think people will love it, but then and then put it in the market and you wait for people to love it. If you can validate that before it gets into the market, I think you're gonna be better off from a pure product development perspective and a an adoption perspective. And that's where I think it can have the most

impactful difference for development teams. if they build that into their their process overall.

Jason (07:32)
Well, that makes total sense. It actually plays into my next question, which is how has AI kinda shifted the balance then between you know, I it's kind of engineers versus marketers or technical and non technical folks, right? How does it affect that balance the way that products get built, as you were just referencing?

Jim Lefevere (07:49)
Yeah, I think it's always interesting because in my career there's always been the people and ⁓ and ultimately if you have the ability to kind of be a bridge, you know, the kind of the the technical person that can also speak business or the business person that can also speak technical, you have a pretty rare gift and skill set, and those those people are always pretty much in in high demand, regardless of industry or or where you go. So

With that in mind, I think it actually can help both sides. I don't know that it has an advantage for one or the other because the engineer can become more business ⁓ savvy and the business person can become more technically savvy. And I think it just cr can create and foster better dialogue, better work together, and you know, ultimately a better feature or product in the end. but it does require that people

⁓ adopt, embrace AI to the extent that they can within their team and workflow so that they can understand that job to be done. They can understand who feels the pain, what evidence matters in terms of proving that feature, you know, all of those things I think are improved through the use of AI.

Jason (08:59)
Yep, agreed. And so and you've gone through, as I've gone through, digital transformations, right? Only from the early days of the internet, right? after our days at IU is when it really started to kick in. But I'm curious, as you've led these major transformation efforts at your 24 years at Roche, how do you see adoption now? This whole AI adoption, how do you see it differently?

from previous technologies that you you managed and drove through the organization.

Jim Lefevere (09:29)
⁓ much differently in that a when I led transformations and you know kind of Martex stacks and how and changing how people worked, it was more or less a kind of a stakeholder buy-in, ⁓ efficiency play, trying to drive more efficiency and effectiveness ultimately to you know thirty plus countries around the world.

and the business case for that is much easier to develop. Like if we switch from this platform to this other platform, it'll be better for the users and you know we may save money, we may spend a little bit more money, but we'll be able to, you know, send 10,000 emails much easier. So it much easier to get approved.

AI, a completely different animal in that you have to get the buy-in from the end users. So before you would just say, hey, we're gonna do this, you get buy-in, and then you train them on it, right? There wasn't a ton of pushback necessarily. some countries may delay or you know what have you. But here I think with AI, you really have to spend a lot more time up front, really kind of getting people bought in to the idea.

bought into the value, bought into why it's important, because if you don't, they're not gonna use it. they have to understand the value and what they're gonna get from it. And I think, you know, one thing that I talk about a lot on you know LinkedIn or elsewhere is that really people are hesitant and healthcare is you know a slow adopter of technology by and large.

People are very hesitant to introduce a thing that they think could take their job. And so you have to demystify it. You have to, I think, really emphasize the human in the loop, the value of human judgment, how AI can be a force multiplier, what that means, how it can help them, but and stand by it from an integrity perspective.

say that it's not gonna take your job, right? I think people have to really kind of draw the line in the sand that you know we're not bringing in AI to take jobs, we're bringing it in so that the organization can be more effective. So it requires change management, it requires kind of evaluating workflows, it requires training, it requires kind of a whole you know re-evaluation of the operating model within that commercial function.

Jason (11:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Well, it's and I think it's great perspective. I think sometimes I'll speak broadly, it's hard for people to believe that when they see what's happening around them when there's these mass layoffs and whatnot. So, you know, it becomes a trust factor to say, you know, one, I'm gonna believe you as an organization that you're doing this and you have, you know, my interest at heart, maybe not my best interest, but

You're taking into consideration what I can do. But I think it also is then incumbent on individuals to to learn this and and test it and try it and also work with people like you, like the Wisory to help guide them through it, right? So that they can feel comfortable with it. ⁓ something that I've felt early days of the internet, because people really didn't know if the internet was going to take off, things would be outsourced. And so companies would start by saying, you know, we're

Jim Lefevere (12:29)
Yeah.

Jason (12:32)
We don't know if we should really invest in this and people and our process internally, so I'm gonna outsource it. And that took like two or three years to get through that phase. I think with AI, it has been so compressed and primarily to the point that you made, Jim, which is people are concerned that if they don't know this, they're gonna lose their job. I don't think people felt that with the internet. Maybe if you were a travel agent, you had that concern. But now I think it's a much broader concern that people have that.

Jim Lefevere (12:56)
Right.

Jason (12:59)
I heard it said if you work in a job where you're using a screen, that that's where you have the highest likelihood ⁓ of being disrupted soon.

Jim Lefevere (13:09)
Yeah, I I think the absolutely agree with that. I and it it's to me it's ⁓ also indicative of whether or not people have kind of a growth mindset. No, are you willing to learn? Like you don't have to become an expert. Are you willing to learn? Are you willing to adapt? Are you willing to kind of learn something new? at

Jason (13:19)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Lefevere (13:27)
think the majority of people have to be more in a lean forward willingness to kind of learn new technology. And that doesn't mean that you have to go all in and you know start being a creating prompts or, you know, skills or whatever the case might agents on your own within Claude, but you you gotta be somewhat fluent in it. And that to me, that's just be a part of being in a career, right? You you have to k stay on top. If you're

Jason (13:44)
Right, right.

That's right.

Jim Lefevere (13:52)
Whatever the case might be, sales, operations, you know, you kinda always have to stay on top of what's happening to be an effective employee. And in this case, it's AI and it's moving pretty quickly. And, you know, I would encourage everybody to at lear at least take a class, kind of learn the basics, at least be you know, dangerous enough that you can talk about it and and use it you know, in your day-to-day work when asked to.

Jason (14:03)
Mm-hmm.

Completely

agree. And and it's funny because I think we've talked about where I teach at IU at our alma mater, and I'm teaching entrepreneurship. And obviously AI has been a huge discussion with the students. And whenever we talk about it or I bring in speakers from the outside, it keeps going back to like no one knows exactly what's happening with AI. You gotta, you know, get in the game, but it's about your critical thinking, it's about your curiosity, it's about your ability to collaborate.

Like those types of skills are what's important. And I've even heard people say, you know what, it's the liberal arts students that may have the better shot than even some of the business students, you know, who are learning a specific skill, you know, a specific trade, versus I'm learning a way to think and to tell stories and to communicate.

Jim Lefevere (15:05)
Yeah. So I have a daughter that's at a smaller liberal art arts college in Indiana and they are the a great way to describe it because that is kind of what they're teaching and how they're teaching it is critical thinking and ⁓ how to ask better questions to get better answers. And, you know, that certainly applies to AI. And I always like to tell people that are new to it is, you know, whatever, like pick a topic that you're interested in learning about and then ask it to teach it to you as if you're, you know, five

fifth or sixth grade, whatever the case might be. But then because you are an adult and you have human experience, you know, ask it a contrarian question or a question that you know will force it to think a little bit differently. And that's the power and get that answer. That's the power of what AI can do for you in the the simplest of terms. And how you can see, you know, you get an answer, but then you're applying your human knowledge to it and how it will say it will

In the best case scenario, it will stop and say, you know, good to challenge me on that, and we'll provide you a different answer, and maybe one that is more aligned to kind of what you know and understand. And that's kind of the value and the benefit of having AI being a force multiplier and helping you in your job and whatever that is.

Jason (16:10)
Mm.

Yep, I think that's very smart. So I'm gonna get back into our our questions and we're actually almost done with them, Jim, and you're you're you're flying through them. and I think it gets into actually what we just were talking about, but how do you build a team culture that embraces these tools, these AI tools, without losing the huge min human judgment that matters so much in the healthcare space?

Jim Lefevere (16:40)
Yeah, so one thing that I'm passionate about and ⁓ always like to talk about is if you're a leader and you are implementing AI in your organization or whatever the case might be, your department, I think you have to within kind of those boundaries, I think you have to think about a couple of things. One is, you know, do you wanna establish a manifesto of sorts for how AI is gonna be used within that that

group, team, whatever. So what do you believe? And that's a way for everybody to kind of get together and it can be a part of the change management process as well of people voicing their concerns, their worries, and creating kind of a shared understanding of what AI can be for that particular situation. I also think you need to emphasize human in the loop. So AI is a force multiplier. It's a

An assistant, it's an aid, it's not a replacement. And being clear about kind of what that means in that practical situation, that it does not kind of take away human judgment and human thinking. and ultimately it allows people to become more empowered about how they use it versus less empowered and you know becoming cynical ultimately about kind of that that use of it. and then

Establishing the ground ground rules for how it's gonna be used going forward. So and and each workflow governance, workflows, how it's going to be used, what data it's going if you're using kind of just Gen AI and large language models.

you know, what's the review process going to be for that so that it's just you're not tr fully blindly trusting the output of it, but that it will go through a human process of review and utilization. Or if you're creating a specific LLM for that organization, kind of where's a human in the the workflow to review the results of that. And I think that's where you know you can implement it, but implement it smartly.

and implement it in a way that is a benefit and and not a threat to organizations and teams and and groups that are you know in an organization and need to learn how to use it ⁓ effectively.

Jason (18:43)
I I I could not agree more vehemently in terms of what you just shared. I mean, as you know, having been an advisor in the Wisory, we have a saying which is AI plus AI equals AI, which is our advisor insights plus artificial intelligence give you actual intelligence. And you know, the the technology around AI is still nascent. And

Jim Lefevere (18:57)
Yeah.

Jason (19:08)
There's a lot of hallucinations, as you have mentioned before, in your personal experience, it may take you down paths that may not be right. And you need someone who's been there. You need the wisdom of that experience and that critical thinking and judgment to guide not just the prompts and the inputs, but to make sure that what you're getting back is right, and actually can be utilized. So I'm I'm in complete agreement with you. So we went through all of our questions, Jim. You passed with flying colors. but I have one more.

Jim Lefevere (19:32)
Wow, that's amazing.

Jason (19:35)
I have a bonus question. So when folks want to engage with you on the Wisory, what what are you best positioned to help business leaders and and their companies ⁓ answer ⁓ when they engage with you?

Jim Lefevere (19:47)
So thank you. ⁓ my career has been interesting because I have actually been involved in kind of all aspects of marketing. So I was involved specifically in diabetes care. And that has, from a healthcare perspective, that has elements of direct-to-consumer. So been involved in direct-to-consumer campaigns. But it also has a significant B2B aspect of it. So been involved in B2B. And it also has a B2B to C component. and so

Long way of saying that I've seen kind of and been involved in all aspects of marketing, primarily focused now on B2B or B2B to C, and helping companies that are revenue positive, are ready to launch a product up through series B and profitable or and large, help them evaluate and find commercial clarity. As you

As companies grow, you're launching your first product, you really need to find, your ideal customer profile. who who is the buyer? you need to understand them very deeply. You need to understand their pain points, the job to be done, kind of messaging architecture, unique value proposition, content to reach them, the best avenues to reach them. And so help companies create, find and create all of that, and then execute it.

as well. Companies that are a little bit larger, ⁓ they may have grown and kind of hit the ceiling in terms of growth and they might be going upstream and trying to find you know more revenue. They might be trying to find ⁓ another buyer that's higher up on the buying scale. They might be trying to increase price and I help them kind of transition from what got them to really good ⁓ to help them get to great as well. And

all focus med tech, health tech, digital health, a little bit in biotech and pharma definitely had exposure to that through Roche and understand it. and part of that is also helping them navigate, you know, all the things that come with that, regulatory pilots and health systems, all of those types of things.

Jason (21:37)
Great. Well, I I'm so excited for people to engage with you. I'm very excited about the round table that is going to be coming up in the next couple of weeks. And if folks can't join us for the round table, you can always go to Wisory.com and get access to it. and it's about product development in the age of AI, which we touched on quite a bit here today. But you along with Regis, who helped build Rocket Mortgage from the start.

And Parrish, who built Fidelity's whole CX and UX and their product suite. I think we have three amazing people, three amazing leaders that are to come and provide some great perspective. So thank you for all of it, Jim. This was a wonderful conversation. And I wish you a wonderful Fourth of July holiday and a great cruise.

Jim Lefevere (22:22)
Thank you. thank you. Yes. likewise

looking forward to a little bit of vacation here in the the next week or so and definitely looking forward to the upcoming podcast. I think it'll be a great conversation with ⁓ everybody that have kind of similar backgrounds and and it'll be a a lively discussion, I'm sure.

Jason (22:41)
I agree. I agree. Thanks. All the best, Jim. See you soon.

Jim Lefevere (22:43)
Thank you, appreciate it. Bye bye.